For the sixteen people who still read this blog, I’d like to know your biblical understanding about last things. Do you hold a recognized position (pre, mid, post trib, pre, post, or aaaaaaah mil)? Do you hold a less well known position (idealism, preterism)? Are you a prophetic goulash?
As briefly as possible state why you hold the position that you do. If you have changed positions indicate what was the major factor in your positional change.
Readysetgo.
I’m a bit of a goulash. I’m amill in terms of the kingdom and Rev 20. I’m partial-preterist in terms of the olivet discourse, the identity of 666 and most of revelation, but I’m also idealist in terms of revelation, seeing events that occurred in Johns day as reoccuring throughout time to varying degrees.
I was dispenstional. Then historic premill. Then HP with a dash of partial-pret. Now the above.
I pretty much hold to some form of everything I guess haha.
Comment by Bryan — December 16, 2008 @ 3:38 pm
I guess I’m one of the 16, but I don’t have much to contribute. I have never really resolved this issue and signed on the dotted line with one of the major views. I can say that I don’t subscribe to any view that too radically separates Israel and the church. Other than that, I focus mostly on the fact the Jesus will return and ultimately reign as king of kings and lord of lords. I long for and find hope in his coming, but I can’t map out the events on charts and graphs :)
Comment by Todd B. — December 16, 2008 @ 4:12 pm
Not into forcasting, not into thinking I can speed things up. Not into destruction of the world and a new one created. Into Jesus coming at an unkown time and when unexpected. Location….. earth. Not into the dualistic thinking ie Abandoning earth for somewhere else.
In many ways, not really bothered when or how. Into Bodily resurrection and pretty much NT Wright’s view on things instead. There has been too many jokers playing numerical gymnastics…. I remember the cold war attempts by people playing at being prophetic!
In a flash, and not as we know it!
Comment by Andrew — December 16, 2008 @ 4:24 pm
I’m an amill (Luke 17:20-21) preterist (Matthew 23:36).
Comment by Bradley Cochran — December 16, 2008 @ 4:52 pm
The first time I ever heard anything about this, the best teacher I’ve ever heard a Baptist preacher teaching in a Presbyterian Church) explained it from his standpoint, classic pre-trib, pre-mil. I’ve kind of stuck to that ever since (40+/- years); mostly because every time I get real curious and start to study the matter, I conclude I don’t really care.
At least not enough to spend any time pursuing it.
Comment by Bob Cleveland — December 16, 2008 @ 5:05 pm
I believe that Jesus sits at God’s right hand and will return to judge the quick and the dead. That is about as far as I go on trying to nail it down. Jesus is coming back and we wished we’d all been ready.
I used to be a pre-trib, pre-mill, dispensationalist. Not so much anymore, although if you had to pin me, I would say that I still believe in a literal millenium, although I have a different view of the Rapture than I used to. In the end, it really doesn’t matter what I think about it apart from believing what the Bible clearly says about how we are to live right now. That is what we should concern ourselves with, not dates, times, etc.
Comment by Alan Cross — December 16, 2008 @ 5:38 pm
Marty- I’m not completely clear concerning my position. I was raised (as all good little Baptist kids are) as a dispensationalist. Studying Matthew 24 rocked my world, however, when I saw what appeared to be a post-tribulational “rapture” of the church. Further study has been heavily influenced by R.C. Sproul, among others, and so I would probably fall into the amil category today. It’s also fair to say that I’ve been very intrigued by the partial-preterist position and would like to study it further.
Most of all, however, I think it’s fair to say that I’m in process.
Comment by Micah Fries — December 16, 2008 @ 5:41 pm
Micah-
I think it’s fair to say that a number of people are in the process!
Comment by Marty Duren — December 16, 2008 @ 5:49 pm
I’m a “Pan” millennialist. It will all “pan” out in the end? Old. I know.
I have come to the conclusion that it doesn’t matter what I believe about this because what I believe won’t change God’s eternal plan.
I wasn’t clear about this in seminary and I’m not clear about it as a pastor. When I preached on the end times not too long ago, I made it clear that all we could know for sure was that Jesus WILL return. Anything beyond that is speculation on our part.
I made a couple of old ladies mad, especially when I said that “rapture” wasn’t in the Bible! Oh well…
Comment by Rick Boyne — December 16, 2008 @ 5:53 pm
I’m a Lahayian Jenkinist. I believe the anti-Christ will be a Romanian man named Nicolae Carpathia, and that the Left Behind series was divinely inspired. ;-)
Seriously, this preterist view sounds very intriguing, plus it really rocks the boat so that’s an added bonus!
Comment by Beth L. formerly Beth D. — December 16, 2008 @ 6:20 pm
I grew up dispensational premillenialist, but couldn’t reconcile it with my studies in seminary and beyond. I once heard a professor say that he was historical premillenialist three days a week and amillenialist on the other four. I agree with how he was admitting that both have strong arguments. In the end though, I’m an amillenialist partial preterist.
Comment by Ranger — December 16, 2008 @ 7:08 pm
I think I am amillenial. Because that’s what one of my professors told me to be. And it is the position that requires the least certainty. Like, “I don’t think the Bible specifically refers to a literal 1000 year reign, but that does not preclude the possibility.” Maybe there will be a 967 year reign. The Bible doesn’t seem too concerned with mathematical precision.
Actually, I think there will be this guy named Nicholas Carpathia…and a journalist named Kirk Cameron…then the end will come.
Comment by Bennett — December 16, 2008 @ 7:22 pm
I am a Partial Preterist who also believes amil close to what I see the Bible teaching.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — December 16, 2008 @ 7:38 pm
The Internet is an interesting place. In flesh and blood community, my views are typically not widely held. Yet here I am, and several people are saying the same things. hmm.
Comment by Bryan — December 16, 2008 @ 7:42 pm
I’ve been known to quip that I’m pro-millennialist (for the millennium). As I’ve gotten old, I find myself much less dogmatic about the ‘how’ of end times as much as the ‘why’ of it–I think that we should know that the end is near, and share accordingly. As to the way God plans to bring all this to a close, I think I’ll leave it up to him.
Comment by Benjie — December 16, 2008 @ 10:25 pm
I guess if you had to pin me down, I’d say I’m a pre-trib, pre-mill, dispensationalist, although I really don’t think about it much. I’m trying to be focused on following hard after Jesus now and I’ll leave the details up to Him. I guess you can close the comments, since I’m the 16th reader, ha ha.
Comment by Rob Slagle — December 16, 2008 @ 10:52 pm
Grew up premil, grew out of it to I don’t care. Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.
Comment by David Wilson — December 16, 2008 @ 11:30 pm
I am pre-mil and pre-trib, but for me the point of prophecy is to comfort, encourage and help me to be faithful until the end. So I don’t really debate about it. We have several views in our church.
Marty, you under-estimated your readership.
Comment by Tom Bryant — December 17, 2008 @ 8:02 am
Beth: That’s awesome!
The place: Earth
The Time: Who knows
All I know is that there will come a time when all things will be made new. The rest is just details that I have no say so about. I trust that God’s plan will be brought to fruition in His time and in His way.
Comment by Jonas W — December 17, 2008 @ 10:22 am
Looks like there are more than 16 of us after all!
What interesting timing for you to bring this up. A friend of mine was just telling me last week that she believes that the events in Revelation have already taken place during the fall of Jerusalem. I’ve always thought it to be prophecy of what’s still to come. I’m relieved to see that many of us are unsure about end times. If you start an I-have-no-idea category, put me in that one.
Comment by Amy — December 17, 2008 @ 10:35 am
Amy,
It seems like you and I are thinking just alike on this.
Comment by SonyaD — December 17, 2008 @ 10:38 am
They’re comin’ outta the woodwork…
Beth-
You must have learned all that when you were reading all 62 volumes of the Left Behind series.
Amy-
I actually think your category is growing.
Tom-
Good point on purpose. Too much fear in some of the views.
Debbie and Ranger-
Where do you see the transitions in Matthew 24 and in Revelation?
Comment by Marty Duren — December 17, 2008 @ 11:58 am
I’d like to link this with your last post on the Alabama fan. As a Tennessee fan, I am a Post-Fulmerist who believes that the tribulation occurred this past fall ;)
Comment by Jason Barr — December 17, 2008 @ 12:27 pm
Well…I just took our entire church through the 4 views…
I used to be a pre-trib dispensational pre-mill. However, I am now amil…The change happened based on 2 statements my first year in seminary. One was “It can’t mean today what it didn’t mean when it was written” and the second was a exegesis of revelation by a preterist…
It was then that I realized there was some view other than Ryrie, Scofield, Stanley, Walvord, and Hal Lindsey!
Comment by David Phillips — December 17, 2008 @ 4:40 pm
In the words of Walter Martin; I would be a PAN-TRIB….PAN-MIL……………meaning that i believe everything is gonna “pan out” in the end!!
Comment by Barney — December 17, 2008 @ 7:46 pm
Marty,
Go ahead and throw me into the amil camp with partial pret. leanings. Maybe I’m a bad Southern Baptist for this, however, I’m sitting here in Atlanta, seven days before Christmas and it’s 63 degrees outside. :)
Mark
Comment by johnMark — December 18, 2008 @ 12:33 pm
aaaah mil, because:
1. General resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous happening at the same time–Jn. 5:28-29, Acts 24:15.
2. Sheep and the Goats Parable–goats go into eternal punishment, sheep go into eternal life [not a millennium]
3. John saw souls [not bodies]–Rev. 20:4. Don’t ask me how, I just know that he did :)
4. If one says that people can be saved during the resurrection of the righteous during the millennium, then there is no resurrection body for those saved people since the only resurrection left is the resurrection of the wicked [according to premil thinking].
Of course, postmil can agree with everything I just said, but that’s another story.
Comment by Benji Ramsaur — December 18, 2008 @ 4:34 pm
It depends on the last book I have read.
cb
Comment by cb scott — December 18, 2008 @ 5:42 pm
Actually, what I believe about the end times is that they are in God’s hands. But I suspect everyone commenting also believes that. So today my “position” is somewhere close to the historical pre camp. Although I can’t name every frog in the Revelation and believe the nature of the literature lends itself to huge symbolism, I also believe more is going on than I understand the a-mil position to acknowledge.
Most of my ministry has been that of an itinerant, so I have tried to emphasize the fact of an imminent Second Coming and one’s need to be ready. I have chosen to not enter areas that I believe are appropriate for the teaching pastor, not the guest speaker.
Comment by Ted — December 18, 2008 @ 10:12 pm
I’m of the Confused variety.
Taught all the dispensational stuff.
Loved all the conspiratorial thinking – it’s fun to think about. Seriously, you have to admit it.
But, mostly, I just look forward to His return and have no idea how it will work out. I just trust that it will and I know that I absolutely must continue to grow in my knowledge and love of Him, commune with Him and do as He says.
Comment by Bryan Riley — December 21, 2008 @ 7:03 pm
I fall squarely in the Pan camp. Funny now, not so funny then – during my preacher ordination, the infamous “Tell us what you believe about the end times” question came up… I answered “Jesus said He’s coming back right?” They agreed, my response “He said it, I believe it, next question!” Don’t think it scored a huge amount of points with the pastor in charge, but they ordinated me in spite of it…
Comment by Rodney McCarty — December 26, 2008 @ 11:26 pm
Well Marty it would seem that you have a few more than sixteen readers. I have enjoyed reading the response you have received so far. All are of interest and telling in their view. Drum-roll please…
I am a nontraditional, dispensationalist who is pre-trib, pre-mil. I had all the same questionings that many have voiced here. But after it was all said and done, I found myself outside of the “dispensational” camp, but still a dispensationalist.
Comment by Martin Pitcher — January 6, 2009 @ 10:59 am