Christian Post recently carried an article featuring Evangelist/Pastor John Hagee’s attempt to help solidify Israel’s control over a united Jerusalem with a financial gift of $6M to various Israeli national causes. Hagee, a well known Christian Zionist made the following comment at a speech:
Turning part or all of Jerusalem over to the Palestinians would be tantamount to turning it over to the Taliban.
Indeed.
He shared the stage with Benjamin Netanyahu, the leader of Israel’s hard-line opposition Likud Party and a former Prime Minister of the Middle Eastern nation. Christian Zionism according to Hagee is
the belief that every Jewish person has the right of return to Israel, and the right to live in peace and security within the recognized borders.
Apparently there is no concern that the Palestinians enjoy the same.
While I appreciate Hagee’s attempt to support any country’s infrastructure and education issues, I fear that this issue is much more complex than he, in his apparent attempt to hasten the return of Christ, is willing to admit. A few thoughts:
1. This issue of Palestinian homeland, almost always tied to Hamas and the Islamic Jihad predates either of them while giving place to the rise of one Yasser Arafat, . The realities surrounding this, stemming from the parceling of the land in 1948, are astounding. If I may digress…
Following World War 2, United Nations recognized that the fallout from the Holocaust could be addressed by the establishment of a “Jewish homeland.” Many Jews did not want to go back to a Europe that had either turned a blind eye to the genocide of their mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters or, like America, turned a deaf ear to their cries. The establishment of this homeland had been talked of for years preceding. From Wikipedia:
Whilst the possibility of a Jewish homeland in Palestine had been a goal of Zionist organizations since the late 19th century, it was not until 1917 and the Balfour declaration that the idea gained the official backing of a major power. The declaration stated that the British government supported the creation of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine. In 1936 the Peel Commission suggested partitioning Mandate Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state, though it was rejected as unworkable by the government and was at least partially to blame for the 1936-39 Arab revolt.
It seems lost on modern Christian Zionists, bent on helping God fulfill the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, that there are people in Palestine who are not Muslim, certainly not Hamas, but are of all things Christians! So supporting Israel’s actions of destroying West Bank settlements so that they may have all of Jerusalem can certainly have the effect of displacing our Palestinian brothers and sisters in Christ; and this occurring at the hands of those who know not Jesus. Even a casual perusal of a book such as Blood Brothers by Elias Chacour would reveal a much different beginning to the current State of Israel than many modern Christian Zionists are willing to admit or, possibly, even face. (This book was called, by a former UPI correspondent in Israel, “An accurate, moving account worthy of careful attention.”)
Imagine being in your home on the land that has belonged to your family for generations, cultivating olives, playing in the vineyards then hearing a rumor that Palestine has been parceled up to form a new homeland for Jewish people from all over the world. So? Maybe that means the opportunity for new friends. Then imagine that a few weeks later, heavily armed soldiers show up at your door demanding that your entire family leave and giving you a short time in which to do so. You would be paid nothing for your home, your land, your crops. Upon their return you would face the possibility of violence or even death if you did not comply. Imagine taking what belongings you could load up and heading out like a band of gypsies to camps in Jordan (whose government did not want you either). In the case of Chacour’s family, the military duped an entire village into leaving for their “own protection” and then occupied their homes forbidding them return.
Historian Christopher Sykes noted that
Zionism…found itself closely bound to imperialism…[It] depended for its foundation and early growth on the success of British imperialism.
2. The aggression and violence in the newly demarcated Israel was not carried only out by Palestinians dissidents, but by some of the future leaders of the tiny ancient/new nation: Menachem Begin (whose stated goal was to “purify” the land of the Palestinian people) and Moshe Dayan for example. Concern over this behavior was raised by Harry S. Truman even before May 1948. In an August letter of the previous year, he wrote to Eleanor Roosevelt
I fear very much that the Jews are like all underdogs. When they get on top they are just as intolerant and as cruel as the people were to them when they were underneath.
About Dayan’s political philosophy it was written:
[Israel should] threaten the Arabs and constantly escalate the level of violence so as to demonstrate her superiority and create the conditions for territorial expansion.
This Zionist version of Manifest Destiny could have been phrased thusly: “God has given us the land and woe to any who stand in our way.” Almost incomprehensibly the very people who had faced genocide five years earlier now seemed poised to foist it upon the native inhabitants of Palestine. Chacour notes how unfairly the Palestinians, in the struggle to retain their own homes and lands, were characterized in the world’s press:
Palestinians, who in any other country being overtaken by a foreign force would have been called freedom fighters, were “terrorists” and “guerillas.” Hence, the widely used term, “Palestinian terrorist” was ingrained in the Western mind.
There can be little doubt that the same duplicity still exists today.
Also seemingly unknown to Hagee is just how unjust the original partitioning seems to have been. According to one source:
In 1947, the United Nations partitioned Historic Palestine, giving 55% to the Jewish population and 45% to the Palestinian population. The indigenous Palestinians rejected the division of the land on which they had lived and farmed for centuries. At the time of partition, the Jewish population owned less than 6% of Palestine.
(Check out this enlargeable map of the 1947 partition plan. It’s quite different to what is in the back of your Bible.)
3. The biblical fulfilling of the Abrahamic Covenant’s “land grant” is accurate, I believe, but is there any clear biblical teaching that it will be fulfilled in our lifetime? It seems that Christian Zionism is so linked to a “pre-mill, pre-trib” eschatology that it leaves no possibility that this current Jewish occupation of “the land” is not necessarily the permanent possession of it. I’ve never seen any scripture that precludes at least a potential situation in which the Jews could be again dispersed and regathered at some future point. (I don’t believe that to be the case, but I just can’t rule it out biblically.)
It’s also worth mulling over that one can do an interesting comparison to America’s history. The colonies declared independence from England. We were determined to have our own country. The response of England was to send the Army and Navy that they might set straight those who were rebelling against the crown. In response to this aggression, we fought the Revolutionary War. The heroes of that time are called “The Founding Fathers.” In the Palestinian-Israeli conflict comparison, we equate with the Palestinians, yet, as Chacour noted, we called their fight “terrorism.”
It is clear, to me anyway, that God worked in some pretty miraculous ways in Israel’s early modern days to allow her to remain in existence (the Six Day War, for example), but the fact remains that the modern Jewish state is a nation of people walking in spiritual darkness. Paul makes it clear that a veil remains over the eyes of those of Jesus’ physical kin who do not believe in Him (2 Corinthians 3), while the god of this world strives to keep them blinded so that the light of the gospel will not enlighten them (2 Corinthians 4). Simply because God has a future plan for Israel does not give them a free pass on each and every decision that their politicians make in this day and age. In fact, there are many times when I watch the news and wonder if their leaders have ever read the Old Testament prophets at all. Where is the justice and mercy that God sought throughout the days leading up to the deportation of both Israel and Judah? It seems that they have again become focused on the land of the promise rather than the God of the promise.
I’m concerned that John Hagee has done the same thing.
(HT: Kevin Bussey)
Additional quotes from How Israel Was Won, by Baylis Thomas and A History of the Middle East, by Peter Mansfield.
There are approximately 40,000 Palestinian Christians and 144,000 Arab Christians who do not feel supported by us.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 9, 2008 @ 6:50 am
I’m curious as to your personal eschatological views, especially in regard to this question. This is not an antagonistic question; I’m seriously interested in your thoughts, because of your remark about Zionism and pre-mill, pre-trib. A personal email would be fine. Or a link. Thank you. My personal thoughts are becoming less and less directed by pre-mill, pre-trib and I’m interested in your views.
Comment by Bernard Shuford — April 9, 2008 @ 7:41 am
Debbie-
If “us” is the US government, then they may never feel supported. If “us” is our churches, that feeling can change immediately.
Barnard-
Thanks for the question. I was raised strictly “pre-mill, pre-trib” and still lean that way, but at this moment I would, in all honesty, have to describe my eschatology as “unsettled and unsettling.” I believe that Jesus Christ will return to the earth and reign bodily. Apart from that, I don’t have nearly as much nailed down as I once did! Please feel free to interact with some of your views here.
My thought is whether Christian Zionism is “so” pre-trib that, rather than seeking for a peaceful solution to the P-I conflict that they would almost welcome the continued instability (“wars and rumors of wars”) as a sign of Christ’s nearing return.
Comment by Marty Duren — April 9, 2008 @ 8:23 am
Marty,
I don’t think God needs our help. Great analysis.
Comment by Kevin Bussey — April 9, 2008 @ 8:58 am
Great post, Marty. I am sympathetic with your views, even your “unsettled and unsettling” position on eschatology. I read a very good sermon on this matter by Rich Nathan, a pastor in Columbus, OH. You can access a version of his sermon here.
Comment by Emily Hunter McGowin — April 9, 2008 @ 9:12 am
I was “raised” in a Free Will Baptist culture that believes the “Kingdom” is strictly in our hearts and that Christ will never reign in a bodily fashion, for a thousand years or any other period of time. They teach ONE judgment, not two, with a separation of sheep and goats, and all of that plays into their view of endtimes. My education, both high school and college, was in a pre-mill, pre-trib environment, not truly Southern Baptist but more “independent” Landmark thinking (Pensacola Christian College). When one is narrowly taught that particular mindset, it’s easy to not realize that “other” views can be Scripturally supported as well. Having been exposed to both ends of this spectrum, I quite honestly have put the question in a part of my mind that says “I don’t know” and I don’t really teach or proclaim certain belief in any particular eschatology. I don’t think it’s crucial to the faith, even though many do.
I’m much like you in that I’m unsettled about it. I think many others in Southern Baptist life are too, and probably in other theological circles. I see that more and more as I read the net, etc. I don’t want my “longing” for the return of Christ to fade, and I don’t want to just jump on a “Mark Driscoll” train and call the “rapture” a bad idea, but I often think we miss the point. I think Hagee has missed the point, even though he’s a much more studied man than me. I don’t claim to know “the point” myself, so don’t misunderstand my “questioning” to be “judgment”.
I always get a little nervous when a preacher, teacher, or writer, claims to have an unquestionable answer to the books of Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, etc… Many of the prophecies and things that are happening today have actually been happening since Christians died in Rome, maybe even LESS now than then. But we seem to grab these current events and try to use them to scare non-believers into our way of thinking, and to me, that is a terrible mis-use of prophecy. I don’t completely trust the pre-mill timeline any more, but neither am I convinced that it’s “wrong”. I DO believe, though, that using the threat of the rapture and the tribulation to manipulate folks into “accepting Christ” is contrary to the gospel. I believe that, as far as winning people to Christ goes, we could capture the entire plan of salvation from the book of John. I don’t think those are “interpretive” issues, and I believe that we need to stay away from interpretive issues when we present the gospel.
The “Thief in the Night” movie series really jaded me. I watched them all in high school and I was terrified for years. Terrified. The Gospel really wasn’t there – just a “get saved or you’ll be stuck here” message. Very little to nothing about sin, grace, and God’s redemption plan. Very little or nothing about trusting Christ, believing in Him, or following Him.
Wanting Christ to return for the wrong reasons – “to judge those whom I don’t like” – is a terrible thing, and that seems to be the mentality of some. “You’ll see!” is not a loving way to tell someone that they are doomed to hell without Jesus Christ.
Again, I hope I’m not warping your comment stream in a direction you don’t intend.
Comment by Bernard Shuford — April 9, 2008 @ 9:15 am
Brother Marty,
Having met many Palestinians who were driven out of their homes, this is a subject that is very near to my heart. Many still have the deeds to their home and the key to the front door… but someone else lives in their home! It concerns me that so much of American Christianity blindly supports the Israeli government. For those who support Israel after researching BOTH sides of the conflict, that is fine. But I’ve found this is not typically the case. At the end of the day, followers of Jesus should NEVER support injustice. This means we have a responsibility to research a situation such as this prior to supporting one side or the other. For the record, I support neither. I support the Kingdom of the risen Lord Jesus of Nazareth. And by my King’s standards both sides have committed acts offensive to Him.
A decent “Christian” book on this topic is Colin Chapman’s “Whose Promised Land?” It is anything but dispensational, but shows the inherent racism of the Zionist movement and is a great place for those who want to hear the “other side of the story” from a brother.
His peace be with you brother,
From the Middle East
Comment by from the middle east — April 9, 2008 @ 9:36 am
How many of you have heard “When America stops supporting Israel, it’s all over.” ?? I’m curious, does anyone know what Biblical passage that is based on (if there is one??).
Comment by Bernard Shuford — April 9, 2008 @ 9:55 am
Marty-
Thanks man. This is much needed. I’ve been saying this same thing for a few years now and now Hagee seems to be gaining more prominence which continues to frustrate me.
Comment by Micah Fries — April 9, 2008 @ 11:39 am
Kevin and Emily-
Thanks. Emily, I’ll look at that sermon.
Bernard-
I’ve enjoyed your comments. I remember that “Thief in the Night” series as well and have vivid memories of coming in from school, not being able to find my Mom and have that rush of panic as I expected to see her clothes piled up somewhere with her gone. Of course, I was not a believer then so that would have been reality for me (assuming a pre-trib rapture).
I guess as I get older and study more there is a greater comfort level living with the unknown and difficult to interpret portions of Scripture. It give me great security in knowing that God knows what is going to happen and that I don’t have to know myself.
Middle East-
Thanks for the book recommendation and for your story. Please tell all believers on both sides of the river that we love them and desire for the Prince of Peace to reign.
Comment by Marty Duren — April 9, 2008 @ 1:02 pm
By “us” I mean churches.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman — April 9, 2008 @ 2:01 pm
Marty,
Great post. I was educated under a Christian Zionist and once held similar views to those that Hagee teaches, but I have since learned a LOT that I did not know about the Arab/Israeli conflict. I’ve read some great resources on the topic including Chacour’s book (a must read!).
I still consider myself a supporter of Israel, but no longer blindly or unconditionally. They have done and continue to do some unconscionable things. They have, as it has been said “committed the sin of Ahab,” by stealing land that was not and is not theirs. If they truly desire peace, they will change their policies, but I fear they will not change anytime soon.
May I also recommend: Whose Land? Whose Promise by Gary Burge and Arabs in the Shadow of Israel by Tony Maalouf. Those, along with Blood Brothers really opened my eyes, and have encouraged me to pray more and differently about peace for Jerusalem.
Comment by Matt Knight — April 9, 2008 @ 2:36 pm
Please know that you can be a supporter of Israel without reducing yourself to Hagee’s level. Hagee is not interested in Jewish evangelism and therefore one must question if he truly cares about Israel. Go here for more information:
http://mysterysolvedwithmessiahjesus.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/review-of-in-defense-of-israel/
Comment by Amy Downey — April 9, 2008 @ 4:45 pm
Hagee needs to preach the gospel and let this alone. I often wonder why it is that when some guys get to an influential position they cease to trust the simple gospel and go to seed on something else.
I remember over twenty-five years ago when James Robinson used to preach the gospel with all his heart and soul and cry for because of the lostness of America. Last week I watched him sell vitamins for an hour, talking about how they would change a person’s life. He never mentioned the gospel or Jesus one time.
I take all kinds of vitamins. I like Israel. I pray for peace in the Middle East. I wish America really was a Christian nation. I wish and pray a lot of things. One thing I pray more often now is that I will never cease to preach the gospel. Because surely it is the only hope the whole world has no matter our position on “Trib” or origin of “Tribe.”
cb
Comment by cb scott — April 9, 2008 @ 5:26 pm
Matt-
Thanks for the recommendations.
Amy-
Please know that no one has suggested a non-support for Israel. As a matter of fact, just the opposite. The purpose of the post was to challenge the Zionist position of John Hagee and how it potentially would affect Christian Palestinians. I (and apparently everyone else who has commented here) am for the evangelism of all Palestinians and Jews who have not believed in Jesus Christ.
I hope you be willing to admit the government of Israel has been less than helpful to that end.
CB-
Man, I was rolling over that vitamin comment. Amen on the rest.
Comment by Marty Duren — April 9, 2008 @ 7:00 pm
I have great admiration for your willingness to follow your convictions on this one. I have a bit of difficulty sorting this one out in my own head, and so I really appreciate your input into the subject. My own two cents: Intercession on behalf of Israel is vital, both to the lifting of the veil from their eyes, as well as the health of Christians. I believe that because we (Gentiles) are grafted into the Jewish race, their spiritual and physical well being reflects ours. I am not a Hagee follower, but at times, I have been led by the Spirit to pray very strongly for Israel, and at times it has occurred during what seems to be politically motived actions.
I understand your view point concerning injustice, and what seems to be a focusing of attention upon a physical area of land, but I wonder if you can give your thoughts on Amos 9? This Chapter seems to point to this situation.
Thanks!
Comment by Jacob — April 9, 2008 @ 7:02 pm
Jacob-
I’m not prepared to speak with conclusiveness on Amos 9, but this much seems certain:
1. Amos prophesied before Israel/Judah was taken captive.
2. It can be argued that the dispersion (of both Israel and Judah) and regathering (under Nehemiah, with the rebuilding of the temple under Ezra) fulfilled the prophecies of vs. 9-11.
3. Vs. 13 & 14 may or may not refer to the time through 70 AD, but verse 15 most likely does not refer to that time since Israel was dispersed for over a thousand years throughout many nations.
4. It may be that none of the ending verses (13-15) have seen the fulfillment of Amos’ prophecy.
5. Since v. 15 does not refer to the time prior to 70 AD, there is nothing indicating that it must refer to 1948 (though certainly it could).
Those are my thoughts, anyway. They may or may not be right :^)
Comment by Marty Duren — April 9, 2008 @ 7:43 pm
For someone not speaking conclusively, you’ve got a nice bullet list. And, wow, look at all the comments. Not quite a hundred, but, you know, not bad for a non-SBC conflict post.
My home church, FBC Bellaire, TX (now a satellite church with a campus pastor!) was zionistic, pre-trib, and pre-mill. I think they were pre-Fundamentalist* and they were certainly pre-mature. Nah, good people, but pretty certain about their theology and really certain about their eschatology.
My first clue that they didn’t know it all was a Youth Bible Study led by one of our deacons, a lawyer, who was giving us the timeline, yet again. On a tangent, I said that I had been reading the Bible and asked about Jesus being the “second Adam” (Rom. 5, 1 Cor 15) and he bowed up and said that it wasn’t in the Bible. That would mean that Jesus sinned, since Adam had sinned. I was just wrong. Hmmm.
Anyway, I’ve come to the conclusion that I can’t find a pre=trib rapture in Scripture, and it is not in keeping with the history of God’s people to not have to suffer for His sake – in and out of the Scriptures. Beyond that, I am at a loss to define anything to almost any degree, other than Christ will return bodily.
If pressed to deal with eschatology, I find it more important to focus on the call to be faithful to the end.
Oh, yeah. I got asked by some seniors in my church tonight what tv preachers I watch. Surely I watch John Hagee, don’t I? Uh, no. I don’t watch tv preachers. *crickets*
—————————
* Not historic pre-Fundamentalist, as in they came before Fundamentalism. Just a joke about Fundies and their “pre’s”
Comment by Art Rogers — April 10, 2008 @ 1:01 am
It is unknown to many that the Orthodox Jews did not support the formation of the modern State of Israel. The reason for this, oddly enough, is that they viewed the return of Israel to her land as an event that would be led by the Messiah. Since there was no Messiah in 1948, the Zionist regime was illegitimate. A good movie that highlights the tension between the Orthodox and Zionist Jews is “The Chosen” with Robbie Benson. Although many Orthodox Jews presently live in Israel, they do not see the present State as the “Israel of Return” spoken of in the OT.
Comment by Ray — April 10, 2008 @ 9:00 am
Art-
You slam me and then leave a comment with a footnote? Seems that we all agree that we don’t know much of anything about eschatology, eh?
Ray-
Very interesting; count me among the “unknown.”
Comment by Marty Duren — April 10, 2008 @ 9:11 am
Here I am going to bring a view in contradiction at Marty’s site. O despair and heartache!
1)There is a difference between the strategic hand of God, and the heart condition of the individual, culture, and nation. God can still use a nation with his hand, and they still are heathen and far from Him. Note Old Testament references such as “Cyrus my servant” who probably was anything but, but nevertheless was God’s hand in a time of history. Of note here is Israel (or the actual blood descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) do have a place (if read literally) in the future movement of God on this planet. In terms of God’ promise Paul is notable is he not?: “To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?” Romans 3:2,3. Think of the absurdity of this – a country of 10 million people getting headlines (mainly negative)over every action and reaction that they make from all over the world. I really do not think Peru gets the same press do you? Ask yourself why – esp some of you unsettled out there. And remember Paul’s final admonition about the Jewish people: “And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.” – Romans 11:23-24
2)The Israeli government and it’s policies are sometimes against Palestinian Christians, but no more so than say the Chinese Government, or the Venezuelan Government, or the Sudanese Government, or even the American Government against Christians. Talk to some individuals and churches about the prospect of “imminent domain” or how difficult it is to get a zoning clearance to build a church. But here is lies the difference between totalitarian and democratic forms of government: the right to seek redress for wrongs committed. In both America and Israel people can appeal to the courts to seek remedies for governmental outrageousness. Yes, the Israeli government commits aggression in certain circumstances against Palestinian Christians. But what government does not? And in respect to the Palestinians – at what level did they support the infatada? Did they applaud the bombing of innocent Israelis in pizzerias? Do they support Hamas when they with daily regularity rain down bombs and missiles in northern Israel? You see, these actions are not done in a vacuum by merely a government who does things “just because.”
3) Let us not forget history – the land was a basically an uninhabitable toilet before the State of Israel came into being in 1948. The Ottoman Empire did not care about it, and certainly the local inhabitants did not care. It was only after the Mandate of the U.N. that the Arabs got really concerned – asked all the Palestinian inhabitants to leave their homes while the removed the Jews “to the sea.” It was said that first Israeli Army owned one tank and few relic guns that were holdovers from British rule. Yet they have consistently won in the face of overwhelming odds – 300 million versus 10 million. What does this say about the sovereignty of God?
4)Most of the angst seems to be against those who propose in popular writings a pre-mill, “Zionist” position. With due respect, “Zionist” is a word used predominantly by enemies of Jews as a pejorative – and seemingly is being used by some here as a pejorative against those who support the Israeli State. While I can side with those who are being abused by governments world wide because of their ethnicity, I hold a problem with those who wish to propose a position that could be said to be border line anti-Semitic in it’s own right (and I am NOT accusing anyone of that here). Words do mean things, okay? And if you are jealous of what others right and the money they make – get over it. Write something yourself that best reflects your position, and put it up for sale. Be conscientious in sharing what God has laid on your heart. Be prepared to be held to account by God what you teach. Be prepared to be wrong (as I am). Truthfully what comes off here is an intense dislike against the teachings of youth and the majority view of the people in the pews and the pastors who teach them. Make your arguments pro or con. But please refrain from referring to others in a condescending manner. It is beneath you, and you come off sounding rebellious. Remember what Samuel told Saul about rebellion.
Enough from me â?? letâ??s talk about your responses.
Rob
Comment by Rob Ayers — April 14, 2008 @ 10:56 am
Rob-
Or “Gloom, despair and agony on me; deep, dark depression, excessive misery.” Your contradictory opinions are welcome here-I will go to great lengths to protect your right to be wrong :^)
Seriously, thanks for your thoughts.
1. We don’t disagree here, I don’t think. Remember, though, my addressed concern was John Hagee’s position and his seeming belief that it is implausible or impossible for the government of Israel to do any wrong because of his own eschatological positions. The difference is that I don’t see anyone running to defend King Cyrus. I also didn’t see anyone here questioning the sovereignty of God; I certainly did not.
2. You say, “Yes, the Israeli government commits aggression in certain circumstances against Palestinian Christians. But what government does not?” While I’m sure you didn’t mean for it to sound this way, it makes it sound like you are giving them a pass, ie, “Every government does it.”
You also say, “And in respect to the Palestinians – at what level did they support the infatada? Did they applaud the bombing of innocent Israelis in pizzerias? Do they support Hamas when they with daily regularity rain down bombs and missiles in northern Israel? You see, these actions are not done in a vacuum by merely a government who does things â??just because.â? I don’t know. Where is any proof that true Palestinian believers have done what you ask? Even if they did, it has no effect to my post. I was not defending the actions of any Palestinians, but noted that many of them are our brothers and sisters in Christ.
I will say, bro, to try and compare zoning issues in the US with persecution and enslavement of Christians in Sudan is a comparison that stretches one’s imagination to its breaking point.
3. The land may have been a toilet, but it was an inhabited toilet. The issue was not whether the land was in good shape then or in better shape now. The question regarded the “imminent domain” of a nation that had been inhabited for generations and was currently inhabited when people were removed from their houses and lands either by trickery, force or both. For this point to be a point you must prove that there is a biblical advantage to living in a condo in Dallas/Ft. Worth rather than a boma on the Serengeti.
“What does it say about the sovereignty of God? It says that God, in His sovereignty, has the power to enable a tiny, under equipped and hated people to overcome superior odds on multiple occasions. What does the Trail of Tears show about God’s sovereignty? Or Stalin’s purge of millions of his own countrymen? Or Kin Jung Il in North Korea?
4. I really am not sure what you mean by this point. I don’t see or read any angst here, though I do see an desire to examine the popular positions and make sure that they are biblical and not just popular.
But please refrain from referring to others in a condescending manner. It is beneath you, and you come off sounding rebellious. Remember what Samuel told Saul about rebellion. You really need to identify who you are addressing in this statement and give the specific examples that concern you. This is far too broad a brush, IMO.
Finally, who is in “rebellion”?
Comment by Marty Duren — April 14, 2008 @ 1:38 pm
Marty,
The world would be a better place if fewer people would pay any attention to John Hagee. By the way, do you suppose John Hagee would like Jeremiah very much? Nah. I doubt it.
As for no one being anti-Israel, let me give a quote that will come closer than any on this thread. Since it was not given in print I won’t use the name of the person who said this, but let me simply say he is well-known, is an ordained Southern Baptist minister and is widely read. While sharing a meal with him a few years ago he said that he often thinks that one of the best things that could happen would be for the land of Israel to fall off into the Mediterranean Sea.
To Debbie’s comment, the church in America would find very few brothers/sisters in Israel who are not Palestinians. We should pray that Israel finds her true Messiah, not that she would own a piece of property.
By the way, I’m impressed that you are now being referenced at the Emergent Village blog. I’m calling Roger Moran.
Comment by Paul — April 14, 2008 @ 5:21 pm
Marty:
I’m no Hagee fan, but that was a lopsided picture of the Israeli-Palestinian issue. How well informed are you about this issue?
Life is far more complex that most people’s summaries of this situation will reveal.
Derek Leman
derek4messiah.wordpress.com
Comment by Derek Leman — April 25, 2008 @ 4:36 pm
Derek-
Thanks for stopping by. It wasn’t “lopsided” it was “other sided.”
Most evangelicals are only aware of one side, the side presented by LaHaye/Hagee/Falwell/et al. I was merely addressing some historical perspective.
How well informed am I about this issue? Enough to have heard both Jewish and Palestinian perspectives in person and read even more.
BTW, I acknowledged the complexity of the situation around line 7.
Comment by Marty Duren — April 25, 2008 @ 5:07 pm